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Is there any hope for creativity in the games industry ? [M]
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Token Nazi?
Zelnor



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:23 am   Reply with quote

The video game industry has left me in despair !

Okay, so after a long time I walk along the aisles of Karstadt today, and what do I see ? Crap. Just… crap. There were over possibly two hundred video games there, and just about all of them were utter crap. Third party zombies. Digitalized Vomit. Stupid simulations. Ripoffs.

CRAP !

Why is it that today, where advanced technology enables us to create breathtaking worlds of fantasy, complete environments with people, plants, animals, artefacts – the water rippling like real, the sun shining, realistic shadows, even the glow of magic – and yet all we shell out are the same tired low- no, no-quality renditions of shit ?

98 % of all games today fit in one (or rather one of these and the “franchise or fad” category) of these categories:
- a war game of some sort with hyper-realistic (speak: brown-greyish) graphics but only the same stereotypical characters – either historical or high-tech futuristic faceless voiceless nameless idiots with muscles bigger then their faces and brains that would make a tyrannosaur look like Aristoteles – and just about no plot next to shooting things because somebody says so.
- An adventure game with the same tired plot devices and twists as its predecessors; this, however, largely owes to the fact that most adventure games today are the same Final Fantasy title re-re-re-re-[…]-re-released and some other stupid point-and-click game released to. Androgynous main characters are optional, but often seen.
-A game that was already on an older console, re-released in best Final Fantasy tradition with maybe better graphics but otherwise the same stupid gameplay –either too simply or overcrowded to the point of *crag* – and the exactly same horrible style we already hated two years earlier
-(Korean) cash MMOs which show you hoe awesome the top classes are and then send you on a grind-tarded journey and try to always sell you EXP upgrades and other crap in-between; most of it only for looks. (If I find myself ever paying for a facelift or something similar for my digital, fictional character with anything but virtual, in-game currency – PAY REAL MONEY FOR DATA ! – I swear I’ll beat myself to death with my own keyboard.)
-Stupid simulators, about as close to reality as Uwe Boll is to good movies, which take a concept and then discard it and just make shit up. These are frequently the first to be beoguht by little children who are subsequently traumatized, especially if their bloody stupid parents see these as a sort of test and are subsequently surprised that Whiskers dies in a week because their spawn managed to keep his VirtuaPet9000 alive over three weeks, but didn’t find the cheat console on his cat and was surprised that it stuck its head in the toaster – because the virtual pets from Uncanny Valley are as lifelike as Micheal Jackson.
-Franchise and fad games. Full stop. The sheer numbers of these little…abominations sickens me. All fun and ZeroPunctuation-ripoffing aside – seriously, WTF. These little things are released more and more, crowding valuable data- and shelf space in the supermarkets and at home, and are simply about as fun as having your uretha torn out through your eyeballs with a red-hot snowshovel which has been tied to a corcorde and is filled with lava. They have horribly graphics, butcher their own source material – whatever innocent book, movie, TV show or other thing fell into the clutches of the responsible company, more often then not likely to be EA – to the point that even the Anime dubs of 4kids are less massacred and then fill it up with gameplay that would make Shigeru Miyamoto commit suicide 354 times. Simultaneously. These little – things are thrown out by mass to whore themselves on the streets for money for their pimp daddies EA and Co. They have no soul, no sparkle, no nothing. They’re ridiculously easy, badly written, abhorrently flawed and just… Evil. Even the Devil would make a better game, if he wanted to go for widespread despair and suffering.
And that these little soulless bastards are allowed on the market and on consoles such as the Wii, and use it’s potential NOT AT ALL – it makes me loose my faith in mankind. Just to get money, we shell out and out and out. Consum and Greed seem to have taken the place of creativity and doing things right. And I pray that this won’t stay like this. I mean, when you have people devoting time and creativity – wait, no, forget about creativity – time and resources to shelling out “The sweet little polar bear cub” (Actual translation of a real game title) games after the Knut fad, you wonder how far people are willing to go out of the boundaries of good taste just to get money.

Where’s the creativity ? Chrono Trigger, a game made in an era where polygons were confined to math class and the Gigabyte seemed to be akin to the Monolith from 2001 had me hanging to the screen, made me laugh cry, hope, yearn, fight, rage…
Majoras Mask, with graphics so cheerily colourful and yet so edgy you could cut yourself to ribbons had me glued to the screen, outrunning the moon, time, and fight an enigmatic enemy seemingly almighty.

They both, compared to today, are what a blunt stick is to an AK-47. And yet they are infinitely better in value, because they reach something in people. They [i]have[/h] soul. Spirit. They are… indescribable. Or, rather… They’re beautiful. They’re art.

These little trampled husks today, all cloned of the same tired old thing, however, make me want to take a blunt object to the skull of whoever ordered them produced.
Ten thousand clones of Age of Empires, Tomb Raider, FF….
The same principle, over and over, ad infinitum.

Horrible.
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Twilit Mall: Zelnor Mart    
Bartz Klauser
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:36 am   Reply with quote

Sadly, I agree. Everything nowadays is not-so creative. TWEWY was something fairly creative, but other than that, I haven't really seen anything as creative in this year. I think the pinnacle of the gaming industry was the SNES to N64/PS1 era, which I refer to as the Golden Age of Gaming. And good job there on sounding a lot like Zero Punctuation. Because it's true.
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The Town of Lix    
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Francis



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:08 pm   Reply with quote

The problem is that the gaming can easily make a negative impact on the story, and vice versa.

You may have great gameplay (like Tetris), but adding a lame story that no one cares about only makes it frustrating.
You may have a great story (Final Fantasy), but the gameplay is monotonous.

The gaming industry is very young, and is still going through growing-pains and self-discovery. It is getting better, even though it is a slow process. One big problem is that it takes a huge budget to make a detailed 3D game. Compare that to the fact that anyone can get a video camera and make a decent movie for cheap. So, people can only make games that make money, and to make money, you have to stick with what works and not take any chances. That is why we see the same crap over and over again.

Another problem with story-driven games is that they are too long. Games are expected to provide 20 hours of gameplay. Thats like a whole a whole TV series with multiple seasons. Except they dont have the writing talent of a TV show. So you end up with a crappy story that is drawn out to last for 20 hours.
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Francis' Fort Garage Sale    
Grodus
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:10 pm   Reply with quote

What I really hate is when they take good games and bump them up to atrocities like that.

Read: Bomberman Act Zero and Bionic Commando,

GACK ACK ACK ACK!
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Tails Doll



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:32 pm   Reply with quote

Grodus wrote:
What I really hate is when they take good games and bump them up to atrocities like that.

Read: Bomberman Act Zero and Bionic Commando,

GACK ACK ACK ACK!
The Bionic Commando remake isn't bad. Bomberman Act Zero...Is.
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Hell    
jacking off
Small Sammer Guy



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:33 pm   Reply with quote

Games nowadays are aimed towards...family. Games nowadays are made family friendly...at least in my point of view. The Wii is a great example.
Don't worry, we still have hopes for 2009.
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Baby Shop    
Mister I
Almaz



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:49 pm   Reply with quote

Uhhhhh...I'm pretty sure Nintendo's the only one who's really big on the whole "family" thing. We're still at the point of Not-so Final Fantasies, Enter Halloween-related menace here killing games, alien slayers, WWII/Middle Eastern shooters, and a couple of other stuff. Still, the mean ESRB rating for a game these days is between T and M...

and, unfortunately, console makers don't want what their fans want. What they want is what makes them money, and if their fans want that, well, that's just the icing on the cake.
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Temple of I    
Yoshi
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:15 pm   Reply with quote

Yoshi's theorie is this:

The NES could have been good, but it was the beginning of gaming, and there were no saves, so you couldn't make a game very long.

Then there's the SNES, known as the best age by many. There was saving, so you could have some games that aren't five hours long. The graphics didn't take too long to make, and all was good.

The N64 was 3d. The revolution was good enough to bring nice new gameplay. Yoshi will skip this part.

The gamecube was getting a bit rusty. It was still good, however.

Then we have the wii. Now think about the GRAPHICS. If they have to photoshop a 3d character's sprites, and you can turn them every degree out of 120 or so degrees, then the jumping sprites for each degree, and attacking sprites, then sprites for every item in the game you can lift being lifted, etc. That would take a long time, and developers get lazy.

To be honest, it would happen to yoshi too.
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PSI and more    
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Lord Krump



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:33 pm   Reply with quote

Where to begin, where to begin...

Zelnor wrote:

Why is it that today, where advanced technology enables us to create breathtaking worlds of fantasy, complete environments with people, plants, animals, artefacts – the water rippling like real, the sun shining, realistic shadows, even the glow of magic – and yet all we shell out are the same tired low- no, no-quality renditions of shit ?


Blame Nintendo. As far as I can tell, the Xbox 360 and PS3 are catering to the hardcore audience who respects videogames as an art form, whereas Nintendo and the third parties shoveling crap on the Wii are doing their best to cater to old people and other non-gamers, effectively dumbing down the videogame industry as a whole.

Quote:
- a war game of some sort with hyper-realistic (speak: brown-greyish) graphics but only the same stereotypical characters – either historical or high-tech futuristic faceless voiceless nameless idiots with muscles bigger then their faces and brains that would make a tyrannosaur look like Aristoteles – and just about no plot next to shooting things because somebody says so.


I do agree that there are too many shooters, but I'm going to argue you, as your statements concerning shooters have been borderline Jack Thompson in the past. Like, when everyone was all hyped up for Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, and you were going on about how you "don't like games with senseless killing," when Metroid isn't about that at all. Sure, there's plenty of killing, but *crag*, slaughtering a bunch of aliens hell-bent on destroying the universe is far more justified than any of the shit that Mario does. Sure, there isn't much killing in the Marioverse, but Mario was never really faced with an "end of the world" problem- most of the time, his girlfriend is kidnapped, which is on a far smaller scale.

And, I doubt you'd be willing to give the masterful RPG known as Mass Effect a shot because you'd automatically label it as a "dumb musclehead shooter," nor would you be willing to give the chilling Bioshock, a game with one of the most interesting plots in the industry a chance, because "most shooters have absolutely dumb plots." Which is a grotesque generalization.

Quote:
- An adventure game with the same tired plot devices and twists as its predecessors; this, however, largely owes to the fact that most adventure games today are the same Final Fantasy title re-re-re-re-[…]-re-released and some other stupid point-and-click game released to.


First of all, Final Fantasy is an RPG, not an adventure game. And it shouldn't be grouped with "point-and-click adventure games." I doubt you even know what you're talking about, as "point-and-click" adventure games are scarce- few old-fashioned point-and-click adventure games make it to mainstream consoles. Not even the PC, these days. Secondly, sure, Final Fantasy has had its re-releases, but each game manages to tell a new and unique story, which is usually a great story, at that. Each Final Fantasy is massively different from the last, and are some of the finest games in the industry- if you want to know the true culprit behind recycling old ideas and not adding anything new, look into a little company known as "Nintendo." See "Mario" and "Zelda."

Quote:
Androgynous main characters are optional, but often seen


"Optional but often seen?"

Wait, what? Are we still talking about Final Fantasy, here? Or did you misword what you're trying to say? Please elaborate.

Quote:
-A game that was already on an older console, re-released in best Final Fantasy tradition with maybe better graphics but otherwise the same stupid gameplay –either too simply or overcrowded to the point of *crag* – and the exactly same horrible style we already hated two years earlier


You're being a moron if you're attacking turn-based RPG gameplay. Of course, you may not intend to do that by your paragraph, but that's what I interpreted it as.

You see, turn-based RPG gameplay allows a certain level of strategy that "hack n' slashers" lack- now, there are some RPGs that aren't turn-based that happen to masterfully incorporate deep strategy into real-time gameplay. Mass Effect is an example. However, to say that turn-based gameplay is dumb or simple is, well, dumb- it doesn't have to be real-time to be good. If you want action, play a real-time RPG- but that doesn't mean a turn-based RPG is bad. Some people find real-time gameplay fun, some find more strategic gameplay fun. I like 'em both, as long as they have depth.

Yes, Final Fantasy has a turn-based battle system in each game. So what? At least it does a good job of changing it up in each game- FFXII and FFVII are radically different, for instance. Also, again, don't use the false arguement that Final Fantasy is the primary culprit behind multiple ports- Nintendo is. No FF game past FFVI has been re-released on a console (Not to my knowledge, anyway)- OoT and MM have, however. And a few times, as well.

*crag*, it sounds like you're just trying to find an excuse to bash on Final Fantasy.


Quote:
-(Korean) cash MMOs which show you hoe awesome the top classes are and then send you on a grind-tarded journey and try to always sell you EXP upgrades and other crap in-between; most of it only for looks. (If I find myself ever paying for a facelift or something similar for my digital, fictional character with anything but virtual, in-game currency – PAY REAL MONEY FOR DATA ! – I swear I’ll beat myself to death with my own keyboard.)


No arguement here. Don't resort to those low-quality crap games- play WoW, instead.

Quote:
-Stupid simulators, about as close to reality as Uwe Boll is to good movies, which take a concept and then discard it and just make shit up. These are frequently the first to be beoguht by little children who are subsequently traumatized, especially if their bloody stupid parents see these as a sort of test and are subsequently surprised that Whiskers dies in a week because their spawn managed to keep his VirtuaPet9000 alive over three weeks, but didn’t find the cheat console on his cat and was surprised that it stuck its head in the toaster – because the virtual pets from Uncanny Valley are as lifelike as Micheal Jackson.


That didn't make much sense. Either that, or I'm not reading it right. Please elaborate.

Quote:
-Franchise and fad games. Full stop. The sheer numbers of these little…abominations sickens me. All fun and ZeroPunctuation-ripoffing aside – seriously, WTF. These little things are released more and more, crowding valuable data- and shelf space in the supermarkets and at home, and are simply about as fun as having your uretha torn out through your eyeballs with a red-hot snowshovel which has been tied to a corcorde and is filled with lava. They have horribly graphics, butcher their own source material – whatever innocent book, movie, TV show or other thing fell into the clutches of the responsible company, more often then not likely to be EA – to the point that even the Anime dubs of 4kids are less massacred and then fill it up with gameplay that would make Shigeru Miyamoto commit suicide 354 times. Simultaneously. These little – things are thrown out by mass to whore themselves on the streets for money for their pimp daddies EA and Co. They have no soul, no sparkle, no nothing. They’re ridiculously easy, badly written, abhorrently flawed and just… Evil. Even the Devil would make a better game, if he wanted to go for widespread despair and suffering.
And that these little soulless bastards are allowed on the market and on consoles such as the Wii, and use it’s potential NOT AT ALL – it makes me loose my faith in mankind. Just to get money, we shell out and out and out. Consum and Greed seem to have taken the place of creativity and doing things right. And I pray that this won’t stay like this. I mean, when you have people devoting time and creativity – wait, no, forget about creativity – time and resources to shelling out “The sweet little polar bear cub” (Actual translation of a real game title) games after the Knut fad, you wonder how far people are willing to go out of the boundaries of good taste just to get money.


First of all, don't use Shigeru Miyamoto in an arguement like that; Miyamoto's a moron and hasn't had a respectable idea of what the game industry's supposed to be like for months, even years.

Secondly, I agree; licensed crap needs to cut down. Videogames are an artistic medium on the same level of quality as film or literature- it shouldn't be a dump for cheap merchandising. Then again, if Nintendo's idea of what consumers want to play is "Wii Fit" and "Wii Music," they're not much better.

Quote:
These little trampled husks today, all cloned of the same tired old thing, however, make me want to take a blunt object to the skull of whoever ordered them produced.
Ten thousand clones of Age of Empires, Tomb Raider, FF….
The same principle, over and over, ad infinitum.


There are no "clones of Final Fantasy." Final Fantasy is one of the most masterful franchises in the business, and few other RPGs can be called "Final Fantasy" clones, as Final Fantasy is on a different level. A level that other games can't reach; sure, there are plenty of Age of Empires and Tomb Raiders, but there are few Final Fantasies. Again, it sounds like you're secretly trying to rip on Final Fantasy in your arguement.

Anyway, yeah, the gaming industry has its downsides, but you failed to mention the greatest contributor to the problem- Nintendo and their casual marketing. You should have also mentioned Nintendo's Mario and Zelda franchises in your list of idea-rehashing games. If you did, I certainly didn't see where you mentioned it.
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The Highwind Goods Store    
and I control the decks
carfilledwithfish



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:42 pm   Reply with quote

It's not completely the developer's fault that games based on TV shows/movies suck.
One of my art instructors used to work in the game industry, and had to make a few. (I can't remember which ones, unfortunately) They had to time the game's release with the release of the movie/TV show/whatever, and were given about six months to make the games. And, well... making a decent game in six months isn't really possible.
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Token Nazi?
Zelnor



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:43 am   Reply with quote

Okay, your Lordship...

I personally own no PS3 or XBOX 360 because I don't have Scrooge McDuck chained up in my cellar, so I can't say much about that. Maybe they do have what the Wii lacks, probably they don't.

Also, Nintendo and the third parties shoveling crap on aren't the two-headyd hydra of evil. Well, Nintendo allows the crap on their Wii, but we don't sue McDonalds for letting their people put crappy ketchup and fat in their burgers, do we ? In this case, as in so many (I'm looking at YOU, american oil lobbies !), good things are suppressed by large bags of money.

I don't think my statements have EVER been close to Mr. Thompsons. I merely stated my dislike of the shooter genre and felt that many of them were unsophisticated and on the lines of simple shooting; also - Metroid Prime 3: Corruption is a highly respected member of my video game gallery and not a shooter at all. It's a first person adventure. I may have made some statements about senseless killing in the past, but Metroid Prime 3 is only my second Metroid title ever; so I wasn't quite in the series. It did turn out to be very good, though.

I have read much positive about Mass Effect. And since this too leads to Mr. Thompson - have I ever stated that I thought games were "dangerous", "murder simulators", "training you to be killers" or attacked your pasttime in any other way ? I don't think so. I may not like the genre, but there are people who do and I respect that as long as they have the maturity and sanity to keep it separated from reality. I'd be willing to give Mass Effect a shot, but I wouldn't buy it, not that I could actually use it anyway. I am offended at your notion that I am a stereotyping person. And on the theme of Bioshock - I am compeltely aware of its complex bioethic-, socialcritic- and psychological undertones. I haven't played it, but read through text dumps, watched videos and read the plot analysis. I may not play shooters, but I am not ignorant to their possibility as a medium of a moral or lesson. It's just not my kind of medium, it'd be like having PSAs on my toilet paper.

I do not wish to offend, but I think that the genre of FF isn't vital to the discussion. I admit I made an error, though I think the two genres are closely related. Point-and-Click Adventures are also less scarce then you think -they don't need much work, so the third party thrashers love to make them cheaply. Also, I wasn't focused on consoles in this rant-essay but on the industry as a whole and the fact that there seemed to be, on the surface - even I have better things to do then spend my time reading plot summaries on Wikipedia - not much difference; sure the plots are different but "at the end of the day you're still the same bloody guy rescueing the same bloody princess with the same bloody boomerang." And I can count myself as a fan of the Zelda series. Maybe I am expecting too much, but how about a few new core-gameplay elements ? Majora's Mask's Mask system was a fresh new wind in the musty cellar of Nintendo's Frankenstein Lab. MP3's Hypermode was a wakeup-call with a Power Bomb from the usual collect-powerups-then-scan-and-shoot. Plot is important, but it gets kind of tiresome and easily ignored if it's the same thing all around it. And once again, I'm the sort of gamer who gets all the lore scans in a Metroid game.

And whilst Nintendo does release games from the same franchise every now and then, that's exactly the same what is done with FF as well. It's a franchise. Of course they all have the same name.

Yes, androgynous main characters was aimed at JRPGs.

Okay, first of all, I am NOT attacking turn-based gameplay. Therefore, I can safely ignore the paragraph after that. I meant to say that I wonder how FF goes in when it's mostly one or two titles being constantly re-released.

An Example:

Final Fantasy VII (You know, the one where Aeris dies.) came out in 1998. Now, a mere ten years later, we have:

#

* Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII
* Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII
* Dirge of Cerberus Lost Episode: Final Fantasy VII
* Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII

# Films

* Final Fantasy VII Advent Children
* Last Order: Final Fantasy VII

I know no other game which has been re-made or expanded so oftern. And the same thing happens all over -people make a rotten game, then later get an even worse sequel, a bad re-release, and generally a sucky succession.

Nintendo does not seem to have many ports; the only port I've seen is a cheap third-party remake of a Harvest Moon game which actually was on the GC and I regret buying it.

And I am not looking for an excuse to bash FF, I have a great respect for the series. I am merely using it as a stand-in for a large game series.

I will never play WoW - I'd rather bundle my money and drop it off at the Animal Shelter.

You're not reading it right. I am raging against the large number of badly-made simulation games that are squeezed out onto the market and are so horrifically bad that an Uwe Boll movie almost looks tame in comparison.


If you think Miyamoto's a moron, I feel we will not get onto one ground. I have great respect for Mr. Miyamoto; not for nothing he's called "the Walt Disney of electronic gaming" and "the father of modern games".

And there are clones of Final Fantasy. As it is said, every RPG wants to be Final Fantasy. And many of them use very similiar battle systems. Also, the plots of many of them are somewhat generic and therefore close to FFVII. Your opinion seems to be that I want to rip on FF, my opinion when reading this is that you seem to react harshly to protect your dearly beloved Final Fantasy-series and therefore react slightly above need.

In the end, I do not know why the Nintendo bureaucrats let so many thrid party crap on, but I can't blame the creative minds in it for that. Therefore, I do not see Nintendo as the culprit, but those in the industry who have decision power and take mass produce and money over creativity and innovation.
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Twilit Mall: Zelnor Mart    
Cid
Lord Krump



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:12 am   Reply with quote

Zelnor wrote:

I personally own no PS3 or XBOX 360 because I don't have Scrooge McDuck chained up in my cellar, so I can't say much about that. Maybe they do have what the Wii lacks, probably they don't.


You don't have to be rich to afford one of the two consoles. That's a weak arguement. And yes, they do have what the Wii lacks. Everything it lacks.

Quote:
Also, Nintendo and the third parties shoveling crap on aren't the two-headyd hydra of evil. Well, Nintendo allows the crap on their Wii, but we don't sue McDonalds for letting their people put crappy ketchup and fat in their burgers, do we ? In this case, as in so many (I'm looking at YOU, american oil lobbies !), good things are suppressed by large bags of money.


The thing is, McDonalds is a fast food restaurant, and serves exactly what you should expect from a fast food restaurant. The Wii doesn't serve what I expect from a videogame console- a single hardcore game every three months or more is NOT what a gamer should expect from a console.

Quote:
I don't think my statements have EVER been close to Mr. Thompsons. I merely stated my dislike of the shooter genre and felt that many of them were unsophisticated and on the lines of simple shooting;


Again, you're making generalizations.

Quote:
also - Metroid Prime 3: Corruption is a highly respected member of my video game gallery and not a shooter at all.


No, it is a shooter, alright.

Quote:
It's a first person adventure.


Nintendo was the first to refer to Metroid Prime by that term; quite frankly, they're full of bullshit. If Bioshock is an "FPS," Metroid Prime is dam well an "FPS."

Quote:
I may have made some statements about senseless killing in the past, but Metroid Prime 3 is only my second Metroid title ever; so I wasn't quite in the series. It did turn out to be very good, though.


Good; now, go out and play some more shooters so that you realize that most shooters aren't unsophisticated. There are just as many good ones as there are bad ones- maybe even more.

Quote:
I have read much positive about Mass Effect. And since this too leads to Mr. Thompson - have I ever stated that I thought games were "dangerous", "murder simulators", "training you to be killers" or attacked your pasttime in any other way ?


I was talking about your "senseless killing" statements, which are similar to Jack Thompson's "murder simulators" depiction.

Quote:
I don't think so. I may not like the genre, but there are people who do and I respect that as long as they have the maturity and sanity to keep it separated from reality. I'd be willing to give Mass Effect a shot, but I wouldn't buy it, not that I could actually use it anyway.


Get it for the PC, or get an Xbox 360. Why live off the crappiest console of the three alone?

Quote:
I am offended at your notion that I am a stereotyping person.


Well, you are. You've terribly generalized shooters as being low-quality, plotless games, whereas there are just as many good shooters as bad shooters, maybe even more. There may be too many shooters, but that doesn't mean they're bad.

Quote:
And on the theme of Bioshock - I am compeltely aware of its complex bioethic-, socialcritic- and psychological undertones. I haven't played it, but read through text dumps, watched videos and read the plot analysis. I may not play shooters, but I am not ignorant to their possibility as a medium of a moral or lesson. It's just not my kind of medium, it'd be like having PSAs on my toilet paper.


Sure, it's not your kind of medium, but that gives you no rights to generalize and make statements like

Quote:
a war game of some sort with hyper-realistic (speak: brown-greyish) graphics but only the same stereotypical characters – either historical or high-tech futuristic faceless voiceless nameless idiots with muscles bigger then their faces and brains that would make a tyrannosaur look like Aristoteles – and just about no plot next to shooting things because somebody says so.


You were talking primarily about shooters right here, and even though there are too many shooters, this is still a bad generalization. As I said, there are just as many good shooters as bad shooters.

And, if the shooter genre isn't for you, why bother criticizing it, anyway? You could have pointed out that there are too many shooters instead of criticizing the genre by making generalizations out of it.

Quote:
I do not wish to offend, but I think that the genre of FF isn't vital to the discussion. I admit I made an error, though I think the two genres are closely related.


How are they closely related? A point-and-click adventure game is a game with little-to-no combat revolving around exploring an environment and uncovering clues and items to help solve a problem. An RPG is a game where there is plenty of combat, and one gains stats and grows in strength as the game progresses. They both are plot focused, of course, but an RPG allows a bit of personal input from time to time in a JRPG, and alot in a WRPG. Point-and-click adventure games don't do that. They are highly unrelated, so I don't see where you're getting your arguement from.


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Point-and-Click Adventures are also less scarce then you think -they don't need much work, so the third party thrashers love to make them cheaply.


Not really. They like to make dumb platformers and cheap puzzle game rip-offs much more often.

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Also, I wasn't focused on consoles in this rant-essay but on the industry as a whole and the fact that there seemed to be, on the surface - even I have better things to do then spend my time reading plot summaries on Wikipedia - not much difference; sure the plots are different but "at the end of the day you're still the same bloody guy rescueing the same bloody princess with the same bloody boomerang." And I can count myself as a fan of the Zelda series. Maybe I am expecting too much, but how about a few new core-gameplay elements ? Majora's Mask's Mask system was a fresh new wind in the musty cellar of Nintendo's Frankenstein Lab. MP3's Hypermode was a wakeup-call with a Power Bomb from the usual collect-powerups-then-scan-and-shoot. Plot is important, but it gets kind of tiresome and easily ignored if it's the same thing all around it. And once again, I'm the sort of gamer who gets all the lore scans in a Metroid game.


Then you'll understand that each Final Fantasy game differs greatly, and that the real problem isn't Final Fantasy's repetition, but Nintendo's failure to add anything new to the formula. The Zelda series has some of the most uninspired storylines ever to exist, and really needs to improve.

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And whilst Nintendo does release games from the same franchise every now and then, that's exactly the same what is done with FF as well. It's a franchise. Of course they all have the same name.


They have the same name, but at least Final Fantasy manages to change up the series with each installment. Nintendo doesn't like to do that.

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Okay, first of all, I am NOT attacking turn-based gameplay. Therefore, I can safely ignore the paragraph after that. I meant to say that I wonder how FF goes in when it's mostly one or two titles being constantly re-released.


No title is being "re-released."

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An Example:

Final Fantasy VII (You know, the one where Aeris dies.) came out in 1998. Now, a mere ten years later, we have:

#

* Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII
* Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII
* Dirge of Cerberus Lost Episode: Final Fantasy VII
* Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII

# Films

* Final Fantasy VII Advent Children
* Last Order: Final Fantasy VII


None of those titles are re-releases. They are all in the same universe, true, but all of them are highly different. There is a difference between a "re-release" and sequel- and those sequels and prequels are highly different from the original. Not saying they're good; the Compilation has sucked. But, of course, they're not re-releases and differ in concept, unlike what you're arguing. Otherwise, saying "Final Fantasy" in general is false; you should say "Compilation," instead.

Except for Crisis Core. That one's decent, no matter what X-Play says about it.

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I know no other game which has been re-made or expanded so oftern. And the same thing happens all over -people make a rotten game, then later get an even worse sequel, a bad re-release, and generally a sucky succession.


It hasn't been re-made. And, of course, FFVII is not a "rotten" game.

Also, for games that have been expanded often- Halo, we had three of those. Zelda, we had, like, ten or so sequels. Mario is a good one. We've had an incredibly large amount of Metroid games as well.

You see? You're arguing against series when it comes to Final Fantasy, but you don't argue against the ones you personally enjoy. I'm just arguing against series that don't do anything to spice up the original formula- I can safely say that Final Fantasy manages to change it up with each game, though.

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Nintendo does not seem to have many ports; the only port I've seen is a cheap third-party remake of a Harvest Moon game which actually was on the GC and I regret buying it.


OoT was ported multiple times. Super Mario 64 DS is an example of a port. Super Mario World GBA, Super Mario III GBA, Super Mario II GBA, Yoshi's Island GBA, ALttP GBA, Twilight Princess Wii, Super Paper Mario, in a way... the list goes on and on.

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And I am not looking for an excuse to bash FF, I have a great respect for the series. I am merely using it as a stand-in for a large game series.


But there are far better examples.

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I will never play WoW - I'd rather bundle my money and drop it off at the Animal Shelter.


Sounds like you have some false misconception of WoW. Well, that's youre loss, then. It's one of the best MMOs on the market.

In fact... say, didn't you say something along the lines of "why would they want to play a game with N64 graphics" once when talking about WoW?

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If you think Miyamoto's a moron, I feel we will not get onto one ground. I have great respect for Mr. Miyamoto; not for nothing he's called "the Walt Disney of electronic gaming" and "the father of modern games".


Yeah, Miyamoto was the "Walt Disney of gaming." Back when he didn't suck, though. Miyamoto has an old-fashioned view on gaming- "simple-to-nonexistant plot with decent gameplay mechanics"- which doesn't translate well in to the modern era. I hold respect for what he did in the past, but I hold little respect for someone who would go as far to claim that consumers are not interested in long, hardcore epics, and would rather play games like Wii Sports or Wii Fit.

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And there are clones of Final Fantasy. As it is said, every RPG wants to be Final Fantasy. And many of them use very similiar battle systems. Also, the plots of many of them are somewhat generic and therefore close to FFVII.


FFVII didn't have a generic plot, so you can't say that games with generic plots are close to FFVII because they have generic plots.

Just because every RPG wants to be Final Fantasy doesn't mean they are always clones of Final Fantasy. FFXII had a unique battle system, and I don't see anyone copying that. I've noticed that few generic JRPGs have true ATB battles like Final Fantasys, nor the level of polish that goes in to the battle options and the plot.

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In the end, I do not know why the Nintendo bureaucrats let so many thrid party crap on, but I can't blame the creative minds in it for that.


The Nintendo games demonstrated at their E3 press conference demonstrated how 'creative' they are, and how much they care about their 'hardcore' audience.

You can't call "Wii Music" creative. And, although "Animal Crossing" is alright, it's hardly hardcore- especially when the game they demonstrate doesn't look much different from the previous two in the series. Nintendo is being just as bad as the third parties releasing stuff for their console.

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Therefore, I do not see Nintendo as the culprit, but those in the industry who have decision power and take mass produce and money over creativity and innovation.


Nintendo is one of the culprits. You're right about the industry being in a crappy state, but for the wrong reasons. The main reason isn't because of crappy shooters. It isn't because of Final Fantasy rip-offs. It isn't because of huge franchises, either.

It is because of immense marketing to the casual gamer.
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The Highwind Goods Store    
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Zelnor



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:28 am   Reply with quote

Lord Crump, I fear we are still not being able to discuss coherently.

I am NOT bashing FF or FFVII or any FF game at all. But as long as you see any of my points as nothing but a relentless assault and refuse to consider any of my points for more then two seconds, let alone respect my opinion as tantamount to yours, I fear we have reaches, as we say, "das Ende der Fahnenstange."
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Twilit Mall: Zelnor Mart    
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Lord Krump



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:04 am   Reply with quote

Zelnor wrote:
Lord Crump, I fear we are still not being able to discuss coherently.

I am NOT bashing FF or FFVII or any FF game at all. But as long as you see any of my points as nothing but a relentless assault and refuse to consider any of my points for more then two seconds, let alone respect my opinion as tantamount to yours, I fear we have reaches, as we say, "das Ende der Fahnenstange."


I wasn't just talking about FF in that post. I was talking about shooters and the gaming industry as a whole; I was bashing Nintendo far more than I was defending Final Fantasy.

I'm not attacking you, if that's what you're thinking. If I did in any part of my debate, I apologize, but I was mostly trying to debate your reasoning. As I said, I believe you're right when you say that the industry is screwed up- but for the wrong reasons. If you're no longer willing to argue, we can end this debate here, then. I'll make my own thread on the problems of the gaming industry.
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The Highwind Goods Store    
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Zelnor



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:59 am   Reply with quote

Okay, now we've gotten back on track. I think I might have taken your arguments a little bit too personal - I hope that I am not a stereotyping person; I as student of an international school really shouldn't be.

Anyway, I wonder how the industry would be if the guys with the good ideas also got to make the company decisions. Would they allow the crap on board or would they be content with the money they get from their mainstream stuff ?
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