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Hey [you]! If you haven't noticed, this is now the old digibutter forums. Go over to the new site!
digibutter.nerr
It's Hi-Technicaaal!
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Cid
Lord Krump
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 7880
HP: 60 MP: 2 Lives: 0
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 Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:10 am
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| Zelnor wrote: |
But please, do take us seriously, Cid. At least I don't consciously do this 'for the lulz' or out of a fad. I actually do wish to improve digibutter. I don't suggest I have all the answers or something, but trivializing my arguments and generalizing my intentions and motives is slightly insulting. |
I NEVER SAID THAT YOU WERE DOING IT FOR THE 'LULZ' OR CONSCIOUSLY DOING IT BECAUSE IT WAS A FAD. OF COURSE YOU WISH TO IMPROVE DIGIBUTTER, BUT THEN AGAIN, DIDN'T THOSE WHO WERE LISTENING TO THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION PREACH ABOUT HOW IRAQ WAS DEVELOPING WMDS WANT TO HELP AMERICA?
WE MUST RE-EXAMINE WHAT I MEAN BY "FAD." I'M NOT USING "FAD" IN THE INTERNET SENSE OF THE WORD, BUT MORE OF THE BANDWAGON SENSE OF THE WORD; FOR INSTANCE, SOMEONE STARTS PREACHING THAT WE ARE ALL GOING TO GO TO HELL AND PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT PERSON OUT OF FEAR INSTEAD OF REASON, AND START TO PREACH EXACTLY WHAT THE ORIGINAL PERSON WAS PREACHING. IN THAT SENSE, THEY ARE JOINING A FAD.
WHILE THOSE WHO AGREE WITH THE DOOMSAYERS MAY HAVE THEIR INTENTIONS IN THE RIGHT PLACE, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEIR PLANS FOR ACTION ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE, EITHER. I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THE DOOMSAYING; IT IS A MONSTER THAT PEOPLE ARE CREATING FOR THEMSELVES. |
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Token Nazi?
Zelnor
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 6425
HP: 10 MP: 7 Lives: 1
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:03 am
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So, do you propose not caring about digibutter anymore and therfore not being fad-affected ?
This is a tricky field; if I say that I made an "investment" of time into Digi, I might be falling into a fallacy. Still, I spendqwuite some time here, and I'd like the fun to go on.
WHILE THOSE WHO AGREE WITH THE DOOMSAYERS MAY HAVE THEIR INTENTIONS IN THE RIGHT PLACE, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEIR PLANS FOR ACTION ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE, EITHER. I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THE DOOMSAYING; IT IS A MONSTER THAT PEOPLE ARE CREATING FOR THEMSELVES.
Wait, so out intentions are right, our plans maybe not, but we're still wrong ?
I think you are kind of contradicting yourself. If our intentions are correct, then why is the notion of wishing to avert this wrong ? |
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Cid
Lord Krump
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 7880
HP: 60 MP: 2 Lives: 0
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:41 am
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| Zelnor wrote: | Wait, so out intentions are right, our plans maybe not, but we're still wrong ?
I think you are kind of contradicting yourself. If our intentions are correct, then why is the notion of wishing to avert this wrong ? |
YOUR INTENTIONS ARE RIGHT IN THAT YOU WANT TO IMPROVE DIGIBUTTER.
YOUR METHODS TO IMPROVE DIGIBUTTER ARE WRONG IN THAT YOU ARE SCARING PEOPLE INTO BELIEVING IT IS GOING TO DIE.
YOU DON'T NEED TO BELIEVE THAT THE SITE IS GOING TO END TO IMPROVE IT. |
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Master of Puppets...
The Chaos Heart
Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 4568
HP: 100 MP: 6 Lives: 22
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:10 pm
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| Lrrr of Omicron Persei 8 wrote: | | Zelnor wrote: | Wait, so out intentions are right, our plans maybe not, but we're still wrong ?
I think you are kind of contradicting yourself. If our intentions are correct, then why is the notion of wishing to avert this wrong ? |
YOUR INTENTIONS ARE RIGHT IN THAT YOU WANT TO IMPROVE DIGIBUTTER.
YOUR METHODS TO IMPROVE DIGIBUTTER ARE WRONG IN THAT YOU ARE SCARING PEOPLE INTO BELIEVING IT IS GOING TO DIE.
YOU DON'T NEED TO BELIEVE THAT THE SITE IS GOING TO END TO IMPROVE IT. |
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only reason you improve something is to keep it alive? After all, if it were in no danger of dying, then you don't improve it. So...we're not under the threat of dying...then we must be perfect! But you support the improvment idea...so we must not be perfect...but we are, because we are not threatened by death...but we are, because we are not perfect, because we need improvments...
In short, you contradict yourself.
Also, what evidence to you have to say to support your claim that "All our improvment ideas won't work"? I understand we don't keep tabs on topics, but you could at least point at things like I did. Who made you God again?
Also, did you ever think that the "doomsayers" are not to blame? I honestly think a problem is people like YOU Cid. Maybe some people exagerate the problem true, but there is a problem. From the way you speak, you found as if you want to eradicate all knowledge of the issue. And THAT is worse than telling the cold hard truth: The site IS dying. Slowly, but it is. Progressive change is what put us here, and at this point, more progressive change will hurt us still. We need to go back to the way things were originally, collect our barings, reorganize ourselves, and then make changes.
Or are you to attached to your pathetic role ad president. Even several moderators, new and old will admit the site is dying and needs change. Even Francis seems to care a LITTLE. What about you though?
I wonder... |
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Cid
Lord Krump
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 7880
HP: 60 MP: 2 Lives: 0
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:47 pm
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| The Chaos Heart wrote: |
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only reason you improve something is to keep it alive? |
NOPE, YOU HAVE THE WRONG IDEA.
| Quote: | | After all, if it were in no danger of dying, then you don't improve it. |
THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM FOR INNOVATION WHETHER SOMETHING IS DYING OR NOT, AND THEREFORE IT MUST BE IMPROVED. MOVIES OR TELEVISION CERTAINLY WEREN'T "DYING" WHEN THEY SWITCHED TO COLOR. THE HUMAN RACE CERTAINLY WASN'T "DYING" WHEN IT INVENTED THE WHEEL.
THESE IMPROVEMENTS TO TECHNOLOGY DIDN'T COME ABOUT BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY WAS DYING; RATHER, THEY CAME BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY AND HUMAN EVOLUTION WAS FLOURISHING.
| Quote: | | So...we're not under the threat of dying...then we must be perfect! |
NOTHING IS EVER OBJECTIVELY PERFECT. IN ADDITION, JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING ISN'T PERFECT (WHICH IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY) DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT IS DYING.
IN FACT, IF THE THEORETICAL STATE OF PERFECTION WERE TO EVER BE REACHED, THEN A CONCEPT WOULD PLATEAU, AND THERE WOULD BE NO INNOVATION TO KEEP IT INTERESTING OR USEFUL (AND THUS NO BENEFICIAL TRAITS TO KEEP IT ALIVE).
PERFECTION WOULD CAUSE SOMETHING TO DIE. NOT THAT PERFECTION IS POSSIBLE, OF COURSE.
| Quote: | But you support the improvment idea...so we must not be perfect...but we are, because we are not threatened by death...but we are, because we are not perfect, because we need improvments...
In short, you contradict yourself. |
I'D ONLY BE CONTRADICTING MYSELF UNDER YOUR "ONLY IMPROVE SOMETHING IF IT'S DYING" PHILOSOPHY, WHICH IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
WE IMPROVE THINGS TO MAKE LIFE EASIER AND TO HARNESS AND PUT TO USE HUMAN CREATIVITY, NOT OUT OF DESPERATION ALONE. IF WE ONLY IMPROVED OUT OF DESPERATION, WE WOULD HAVE NEVER EVOLVED PAST THE STONE AGE.
| Quote: | | Also, what evidence to you have to say to support your claim that "All our improvment ideas won't work"? I understand we don't keep tabs on topics, but you could at least point at things like I did. |
I'D RATHER YOU POINT OUT CASES IN WHICH MASS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE SITE'S STATUS HAS SHOWN PROGRESS.
| Quote: | | Who made you God again?[/b][/color] |
I'M NOT TRYING TO SOUND LIKE THE BOSS OF THE SITE, NOR AM I THE ONE EMOTIONALLY OVERREACTING TO ANOTHER'S OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD.
| Quote: | | Also, did you ever think that the "doomsayers" are not to blame? |
MAYBE THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES TO BLAME.
BUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING CERTAINLY ISN'T WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW.
| Quote: | | I honestly think a problem is people like YOU Cid. |
I DON'T GO INACTIVE FOR RANDOM AMOUNTS OF TIME JUST TO COME BACK AND SAY THAT THE SITE IS A MESS.
NOW, I MAY NOT BE THE GREATEST MEMBER HERE, BUT I KNOW THAT I'M STILL STICKING AROUND AND, AT THE VERY LEAST, TRYING TO DO SOMETHING IMPROVE THIS PLACE. EVEN IF ALL THAT IS IS LOCKING TOPICS, HANDING OUT STRIKES, AND JAILING TROLLS.
| Quote: | | From the way you speak, you found as if you want to eradicate all knowledge of the issue. |
I'M NOT TRYING TO ERADICATE ALL KNOWLEDGE OF THE ISSUE. I'M TRYING TO MAKE IT SO THAT NEW MEMBERS AREN'T SCARED OFF BY ALL THIS PESSIMISM.
WHETHER THE SITE IS DYING OR NOT, POSTING JUST TO BE NEGATIVE ABOUT IT IS NEVER GOING TO HELP IMPROVE IT. IT'S ONLY GOING TO MAKE PEOPLE GIVE UP (THIS WAS SHOWN TO BE TRUE DUE TO SOME OF THE MODS HAVING RESIGNED IN RECENT TIMES).
HOWEVER ILLOGICAL YOU THINK BEING OPTIMISTIC AND HAVING A GOOD ATTITUDE ABOUT THE SITE'S FUTURE IS, THE FACT REMAINS THAT A COMMUNITY WITH A POSITIVE ATTITUDE IS MORE LIKELY TO REMAIN INTACT THAN ONE THAT IS NEGATIVE ABOUT IT. IF YOU REALLY THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM, BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT RALLYING UP PEOPLE TO IMPROVE THE SITE.
BETTER YET, IF YOU REALLY THINK THE SITE IS DYING, GO OUT AND ADVERTISE FOR THE SITE, BECAUSE IF THE SITE IS DYING, IT'S MOST LIKELY DUE TO MEMBERS LACKING INTEREST IN THE SITE, THEREFORE MOVING ON AND LEAVING.
| Quote: | | Progressive change is what put us here, and at this point, more progressive change will hurt us still. |
PROGRESSIVE CHANGE AND EVOLUTION HASN'T HURT THE SITE AT ALL. IN ADDITION, I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT MOST OF THE SAME TROUBLE MAKERS THAT WE HAVE NOW HAVE BEEN AROUND SINCE THE EARLY DAYS OF THE SITE. WHILE I MAY BELIEVE THAT MOST OF THEM SHOULD HAVE BEEN BANNED BY NOW, FRANCIS DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT IS THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM, AND WE MUST RESPECT HIS WISHES, IF ONLY BECAUSE THIS IS HIS SITE AND WE AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE HIS MIND.
| Quote: | | We need to go back to the way things were originally, collect our barings, reorganize ourselves, and then make changes. |
YOU DO KNOW THAT THE SITE WAS A SPAMMY HELLHOLE BACK WHEN THINGS WERE HOW THEY WERE ORIGINALLY, RIGHT? WE'VE MADE AN INCREDIBLY LARGE AMOUNT OF PROGRESS SINCE THEN, HAVING EVOLVED PAST A NOVELTY SPAM SITE IN TO A FULL-FLEDGED COMMUNITY.
| Quote: | | Or are you to attached to your pathetic role ad president. ? |
IF YOU WERE AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF THIS SITE AND KNEW AS MUCH ABOUT THE COMMUNITY AS YOU CLAIM YOU DO, THEN YOU WOULD KNOW THAT I OFTEN CLAIMED THAT THE POSITION OF PRESIDENT WAS COMPLETELY POINTLESS.
THAT'S WHY I KEPT ASKING FRANCIS FOR MY MOD POWERS BACK (AND HE FINALLY CAVED IN AND GAVE THEM BACK, AFTER CHERRY, PLASTIC MARIO, BLACK YOSHI, AND CHAOS DIMENTIO GAVE UP AND LEFT THE TEAM).
| Quote: | | Even several moderators, new and old will admit the site is dying and needs change. |
WE DON'T HAVE "SEVERAL" MODERATORS, ESPECIALLY AFTER THAT HEFTY CHUNK RECENTLY LEFT.
AND SEVERAL OF THE OLDEST MEMBERS ARE SAYING THAT THIS IS JUST A PHASE THAT WE WILL PASS THROUGH. WE'VE SEEN SIMILAR SCENARIOS TO THIS IN THE PAST BEFORE, YET WE'VE MANAGED TO CLIMB BACK UP AGAIN.
| Quote: | | Even Francis seems to care a LITTLE. What about you though? |
I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT FRANCIS DISLIKES THE DOOMSAYING, AS WELL.
WE'RE NOT ON TOO DIFFERENT OF A PAGE REGARDING MUTLIPLE THINGS, REALLY.
| Quote: | | I wonder...[/i][/color] |
YOU HAVE THE ROOM TO WONDER, BECAUSE, BASED ON WHAT I'VE SEEN IN THIS THREAD, YOU DON'T SEEM TO HAVE A GOOD IDEA ABOUT WHAT I STAND FOR AND WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO FOR THIS SITE. |
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Token Nazi?
Zelnor
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 6425
HP: 10 MP: 7 Lives: 1
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:25 pm
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I question your reasoning. All you have done so far is mostly calling us wrong, but leaving open precisely why. I disagree that "perfection causes doom" or that we are doomsayers.
I, for one, merely state the Digibutter has encountered a decline in quality. |
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Cid
Lord Krump
Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 7880
HP: 60 MP: 2 Lives: 0
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:57 pm
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| Zelnor wrote: | | I question your reasoning. All you have done so far is mostly calling us wrong, but leaving open precisely why. |
I'VE STATED WHY I BELIEVE YOU'RE WRONG.
FOR ONE, COMPLAINTS LIKE THIS HAVE BEEN HAPPENING SINCE MONTHS LONG PAST (AND THE LEVEL OF ACTIVE MEMBERS HAVE FLUCTUATED BETWEEN HIGH AND LOW NUMBERS EVER SINCE).
SECONDLY, I BELIEVE THAT THE SITE HAS MADE A LARGE AMOUNT OF PROGRESS SINCE ITS EARLY DAYS (IF YOU WERE HERE DURING THE FIRST FEW MONTHS OF THE SITE, YOU WOULD AGREE THAT THE STATE WE ARE ENDURING NOW IS INFINITELY BETTER THAN THE STATE THAT WE WERE IN THEN).
IN ADDITION, I'LL AGREE THAT THIS SITE HAS ITS FAIR SHARE OF PROBLEMS. HOWEVER, SOME PROBLEMS AREN'T COMPLETELY FIXABLE. AS FRANCIS HIMSELF SAID, IT IS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP AN INTERNET COMMUNITY DISCIPLINED. THIS IS WHY I BELIEVE WE DON'T NEED MODS TO BE MORE STRICT (STRIKING EVERY MINOR OFFENSE WILL GET US NOWHERE); THE REASON WE HAVE MODS (AND I'M SURE FRANCIS AGREES) IS TO MAKE SURE NOTHING DRASTIC HAPPENS THAT COULD POTENTIALLY COMPLETELY RUIN THE COMMUNITY.
WE AREN'T HERE TO STOP PEOPLE FROM CALLING EACHOTHER NAMES OR TO PUNISH PEOPLE FOR MINOR NECROPOSTING. WE'RE HERE TO DEAL WITH MEMBERS WHO COULD POTENTIALLY HARM THE SITE, TO JAIL ANNOYING SPAMMERS, AND TO REMOVE SHOCK IMAGES WHEN THEY ARE POSTED, ALL THINGS THAT THE MODERATION TEAM HAS NOT FAILED TO DO.
HOWEVER, DUE TO THE NUMBER OF MODS THAT HAVE RECENTLY LEFT (WITH CHAOS DIMENTIO'S RESIGNATION, NONE OF THE ORIGINAL MODS REMAIN), AND DUE TO HOW SOME OF THE REMAINING MODS AREN'T ALL THAT ACTIVE, I BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD MAKE ACTIVE MEMBERS IN TO MODS.
SO, WHILE I MAY NOT AGREE WITH YOU GUYS THAT THE SITE IS GOING TO DIE ANY TIME SOON DUE TO PROBLEMS WITH THE COMMUNITY (IF IT EVER WERE TO DIE, IT WOULD DIE DUE TO A LACK OF A STEADY STREAM OF NEW MEMBERS, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH WHAT I SAID ABOUT ATTITUDE BEING THE PROBLEM), I WILL AGREE THAT THE MODERATION FORCE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.
IT'S JUST THAT STRICTNESS ISN'T THE PROBLEM. ACTIVITY IS THE PROBLEM.
| Quote: | | I disagree that "perfection causes doom" |
YOU'VE MISINTERPRETED WHAT I'VE SAID.
WHAT I SAID IS THAT, NATURALLY, IF SOMETHING WERE TO BECOME OBJECTIVELY PERFECT (WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE), THE PROGRESS/INNOVATION IN RELATION TO IT WOULD PLATEAU, THUS LEADING TO A LACK OF INTEREST.
YOU AGREE THAT SOMETHING THAT IS NO LONGER UPDATED TO REMAIN EXCITING WILL SOON BECOME BORING AND DULL, CAUSING PEOPLE TO WANT TO MOVE ON TO NEW, MORE EXCITING THINGS, RIGHT? THAT'S WHY WE DON'T WANT THE CREATIVITY OF THIS SITE TO REACH PERFECTION AND PLATEAU, BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE NOTHING MORE TO IMPROVE.
HOWEVER, THE POINT REMAINS THAT OBJECTIVE PERFECTION IS IMPOSSIBLE. THEREFORE, THERE IS INFINITE ROOM FOR CREATIVE DEVELOPMENT ON THE SITE, AND I SUPPORT FRANCIS'S WORK ON DIGIBETA.
| Quote: | | or that we are doomsayers. |
I AM CALLING PEOPLE "DOOMSAYERS" BECAUSE THEY ARE SAYING THAT THE SITE IS DYING WITH EXTREME PESSIMISM.
WE'VE ALREADY HAD FOUR MODS LEAVE BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THEY CAN'T HELP THE SITE OR BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THE SITE IS DEAD TO THEM, AND WE'RE DRIVING NEW MEMBERS AWAY DUE TO OUR ATTITUDES.
THIS EXTREME PESSIMISM ISN'T WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW.
| Quote: | | I, for one, merely state the Digibutter has encountered a decline in quality. |
DIGIBUTTER'S QUALITY FLUCTUATES DEPENDING ON THE MOMENT IN TIME. WHEN THE SITE FIRST STARTED OUT, IT WAS NASTY, THEN IT WAS COOL AGAIN, THEN IT WAS NASTY AGAIN, THEN IT WAS COOL AGAIN, AND NOW IT'S NASTY AGAIN. |
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