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[Popple]

[Francine]

I'll admit that my argument for the creation of life was pretty redundant, but there's still plenty of evidence that other species have high intelligence.

The use of language by Koko does not only stem from the trainer giving her food if she signs correctly. Koko has created crude compound words such as "water bird" to describe ducks. This cognitive reasoning shows that it's more than a Pavlov experiment. According to PBS, there has also been instances of artistic expression by the gorillas.

Greater primates also have a politics system, such as chimpanzees distributing meat to their allies within the troop and keeping it away from their rivals. (source) They also use tools and systematically kill other monkeys, specifically targeting a certain species.

[Popple]

I'll give you intelligence, but that still doesn't mean consciousness.

I don't think animals have thoughts, at least in the way we perceive thoughts.

I think animals like Koko are just taking sign language and using it like regular body language, not an equivalent of speech.

We can hear different noises of animals and tell that they are happy or sad, but they don't vocalize themselves into anything remotely equivalent to speech.

I must apologize, I was making rash generalizations based upon what was provided on the Koko site.

Surprisingly, not much.

I found a twenty minute video explaining what you meant, but even so I don't think that warrants a theory that animals have the same type of self awareness, let alone consciousness, that we perceive.

But this also leaves another line of questioning.

Gorillas are not a new species.

They have been around arguably longer than man.

They seem to be capable of rudimentary communication as we perceive communication, yet it took a human teacher to get it out of them.

If that is true, then one has to wonder how man developed such complex levels of speech.

[BAMFing ARCHER]

Animals actually have somewhat complex forms of communications. Look at the dolphins for an example. We can't understand any of the messages they make to each other, though they seem to understand their own language.

And Popple, we have no concrete proof that animals lack consciousness, mostly because it's incredibly difficult to prove it to another being that can't comprehend what we say, because we and they operate on different levels, and in different ways.

[Popple]

It's actually relatively easy with a lot of animals, because when you put them in front of a mirror they think they've found their long lost identical twin.

In other news, I said they can communicate.

But what they communicate through vocalization is no more complex than human body language.

It is used mostly to convey motions and general ideas, not complex thought.

[BAMFing ARCHER]

Bring me the evidence for your first statement, then we'll talk.

[Popple]

[BAMFing ARCHER]

All right then, but there are still several groups of animals that pass this test, meaning they are self aware. Now, is there any proof that these animals have consciousness, as I stated earlier.

[Popple]

[BAMFing ARCHER]

That, however, leaves it unknown, really getting us nowhere.

Now, on to the real topic: The atheists that act like that, they really aren't "smart", as they proclaim themselves. They're just bumbling fools that are unable to prove their points properly.

[Popple]

All atheists are unable to prove their points.

They are just able to prove that the bible has contradictions.

A BOOK WRITTEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND FOR A MODERN DAY READER

WELL JEE WIZ BATMAN!

[BAMFing ARCHER]

What they do fail to realize, however, is how most texts, if you look closely enough, contradicts itself, unless it's fiction.

[Popple]

A lot of it has to do with numbers.

In hewbrew numbers actually mean different phrases.

Too bad Atheist think the bible was written in english.

You know, by american jesus.

[Francine]

I think I only lean towards the atheist side of agnosticism because I've never found the spirituality or comfort in religion, but science interests me to an immense extent.

And on the religious texts thing, they're probably not even originals. All those emperors and leaders and what not took all of the religions in their empires and smacked them together to form a somewhat general religion, taking the teachings from this sect and the holidays from that sect and the traditions of those sects until you get something that most people in the empire could somewhat adjust to. Like the whole thing with Dec. 25th not being Jesus's biological birthday but instead a pagan holiday with his party date thrown on it. Then there's the whole thing with the Dead Sea scrolls pretty much retelling Christianity or some hoo-hah that made people want to destroy them.

Also I LOVE when one of those rude atheists say that Jesus didn't exist. He existed, alright; there's just the debate of whether he was the Messiah or not. I still think he's a pretty cool guy even if he can't save humanity from its sins.

[Popple]

I don't even believe in a Christian God necessarily, I just think there is a deity that created the universe.

In a sense, I believe all religions are right.

But mostly wrong also.